TRIPPING

[jaysawatzki]

First off, Olney's Lesions are still technically theoretical. Plus, dissociatives are easily the most neurotoxic class of drugs, so yes, heavy dissociative use is bad for you. And LSD has PLENTY of potential use as a legitimate medicine, but research into that was stopped when it became a Schedule I controlled substance. As far as neurochemistry and drugs goes, I guarantee I can go toe to toe with you, whether you actually have a PhD in neurochemistry or not. Before I ever put anything into my body, I learn everything there is to know about it. As for the comparison between marijuana and tobacco, there really is very little comparison. For example, nicotine is absolutely horrible for you, whereas THC and cannabidol really aren't toxic. And you can not say "drugs are bad" or "drugs are not bad". You need to specify WHICH drug you're talking about. Example: Methamphetamine is horribly neurotoxic and really does a number on your body, which is why I never have and never will touch the stuff. THC on the other hand is non toxic. I'm going to say it AGAIN: I know exactly what I am talking about and when asked about a specific drug I will always state the good and the bad.

As for LSD as an MAO inhibitor, that is not something that I have ever come across in my research, but even if it were true, the MAO inhibition would have to be very slight and very short term, otherwise serotonin syndrome would be a common side effect of LSD use, and it is not.

Hmm I have to say you sure do know what you are talking about here, I assume you aren't looking all this up as we are speaking. SS is actually more common than thought of, and LSD is somewhat toxic, although not that toxic, when LSD goes into the stage of inhibiting MAO's there is also some amount of LSD that is doing it's old job. And as I assume you know when MAO's are inhibited they can't beak down excess blah blah blah, you know the rest. So LSD is much more potent thus sometimes creating that "Perma-high" people talk about with LSD at times, I also have some reason to believe it CAN cause ulcers. (I am not going to go into that nor back it up, it is just my thoughts) Also, Olney's lesions are actually proven. I have done a little research on it myself. Most of the tests on animals closer to humans, rather than rats etc are unpublished. But I believe quite throughly in it. I wish I could think of the ratio of substance to brain cell killed, but I can't at the moment. But it IS rather small compared to most toxic substances, but none the less it does cause lesions in rats and monkeys. Honestly I don't see much of how LSD can help the being treated, more then already can be, except how much is made from so little. The idea of how MJ is worse then tobacco, is how it is A filtered, and B the tar, and how the Carbon Dioxide forms bonds. I haven't gone much into Cannabis research because of how much it has already been studied. I only know what has been told to me by other studies. As for the guy who posted above you, I am going to direct you to a site, because I really don't have enough time to go into the reasons for the use of heroin in curing addiction nor do I want to explain it. Sorry. Please forgive me if it is a bad site, I just googled it and pasted the first one, which isn't always the best, haha.

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/hero.html

Anyway I just read it quick, it seemed to show, how Heroin was used as cure for Morphine when it was first discovered, and it still is. One of the reasons I studied it for a while was because of how it actually did cure many withdrawal effects with out giving many back. It was quite interesting actually.

[Ness]

I've never seen a confirmed report of an actual, TRUE LSD perma-high. Those stories almost 100% of the time fall under 2 categories: Bullshit and pre-existing mental condition. With the pre-existing mental condition, it is something that would have eventually developed regardless of psychedelic use. Strong emotional events tend to trigger pre-existing mental conditions, and tripping is certainly an event. Again, this isn't a result of the drug's pharmacological action, but of the subjective effects of the drug. And no, so far I haven't looked anything up on the fly, this has all been straight off the top of my head. I'm not defending drug use as harmless, I'm defending the point that drug use is not in and of itself harmful. Drugs CAN be used in responsible ways in which the benefit one gains from the experiences outweigh whatever harm the drug has done. I wouldn't trade my experiences with LSD for ANYTHING. LSD has greatly aided me in my battle against depression (something I have been struggling with since roughly the 3rd grade) and has helped me to be a more open, kind, loving, and gregarious person. At one point, I was going down a path that would not have ended well for me at ALL and LSD helped me get off of that path. I can't say that my experiences with other drugs have been quite so life-changing, but I've had a blast and am little the worse for wear, thanks to my educating myself and working to use in a responsible manner.

Edit: Actually, I just understood what you meant about the perma-high and I'm 99% sure that you're incorrect as to what causes it. From what I've gathered, the blending of the psychedelic state and the sober state has absolutely nothing to do with physical damage of any kind. It is a result of state-dependent learning. Essentially, your brain doesn't un-learn things. I don't know what it is about psychedelics that allow for this state-dependent learning to take place and actually blend the two states together while other drugs don't. I suspect it is because the psychedelic state is far, far from the simple euphoria that one receives from most other drugs. The blending of psychedelia and sobriety isn't nearly as ominous as it sounds on the surface. Personally, I am entirely comfortable with it, as the majority of psychedelic users are. State-dependent learning allows us to take more of what we learned and experienced whilst tripping back with us into every day life, which can be quite invaluable.

[fanor45]

wow this topic turned really really interesting..really, bad and good can even be called opinions can't they? who is to say it's good to someone..whats good to someone maybe bad to someone else..medically, a lot of drugs that aren't really an idea of a perfect recreational drug ( i'd say meth..who the fuck wants to pick at themselves and stay awake for too many hours lol .) i mean if you have a sip of alchohol your liver isn't going to fail, i had sips of alchohol when i was 7 from my parents..if you do shrooms once your not going to completely kill yourself, if you drop acid your brain wont turn to swiss cheese..both jay and ness are right and familyguy dont call me a dumbfuck when YOU don't know your shit..also, chmsalman...idoser isnt like a substitute for drugs, to me it sounds like your using it to get the effects of a drug, without using it because your brought up to learn every drug is bad for you and can kill u if you look at it. i guess i'll end my rambling on about nothing. (i'm eager to see how this will turn out further.)

Ness: well spoken to everything youve really said.

[Ness]

And also, now that I actually think of it, theres no way heroin could be used in treating morphine addiction because orally, morphine = heroin. The heroin is converted straight into morphine before you ever feel the effects of the drug. Intranasal and intravenous administration is obviously different, but theres no way an addiction treatment program would EVER endorse either of those MOAs.

[fanor45]

Wow lol good point...i gotta get to bed im way too tired for this shit.

[D13G0]

I can see it now.

"Got a morphine addiction? Here, have some heroin. Got a heroin addiction? Here have some cocaine. Got a cocaine addiction? Here you go, have some ecstacy. Have an ecstasy addiction? Here, have some mushrooms."

[Ness]

Heh...not quite. The idea behind treating opioid addiction is to give the person an opioid with the highest possible binding affinity and the lowest possible recreational potential. And psychedelics like LSD and mushrooms are VERY effective at treating addiction when used in the context of treating addiction.

[jaysawatzki]

And also, now that I actually think of it, theres no way heroin could be used in treating morphine addiction because orally, morphine = heroin. The heroin is converted straight into morphine before you ever feel the effects of the drug. Intranasal and intravenous administration is obviously different, but theres no way an addiction treatment program would EVER endorse either of those MOAs.

Your first post was to long to remember, but it seems like you were right about all of it except about the perma high. It's not really permanent it's just an expression. It's for how long it takes for your body to produce more MAO's. BUT, this isn't totally proved, nor is much of how LSD works. A ton of it is mystery. About Heroin being converted into Morphine, that is exactly why is works. Because it passes the blood brain barrier MUCH easier then pure Morphine, it takes less, and is in turn the lesser of the withdrawals. That part is pretty simple. More or less HOW it passes the BBB is the fun part, thats what I was mainly studying. Anyway, I can totally see where you're coming from, many drugs turn you into a better person, and that is the only part of the drug war that I am against the government. It's unfortunate that so many of the drugs cause massive withdrawals that eventually make you a worse person. I have been through it all too, believe it or not. I have tried many drugs, because I liked being a better person to people in school. Back whenever I was a jerk to most people, but when I was doing drugs I was an all around better person. That is why I went into Neuroscience. I wanted to study why I felt that way, etc. Unfortunately most of it is a blurry mystery still, in how transmitters are subjected TO the BBB and pass it. Anyway, I am done fighting online, I think we both make pretty valid points, and eventually are fighting about the same thing. Drugs have 2 sides, but in minimal proportions, be careful, drugs do tricky things unexpectedly, especially off the street, but you seem pretty smart, I assume you are already careful about all that.

BTW: this post is wayyy to long to re-read, sorry for any type-o's or such.

[Syrish]

ok ive read through thiss post for a long time now and im just 15 years old and i am not standin on either side cause i dont know at least i dont use any drugs and dont drink and smoke not cause its bad and ruined pepoles lives well partly yes but its because i do alota sports

one thing i can tell about drugs it messes pepoles lives from the economy side. well many of the problems with drug comes from the fact that someone let you try it and then you become addicted. then you need it so much you just buy it, you spend evrey single penny on it and when you have non left you will start stealing and sutch

well some guys came to our school from a place called hassela gotlad (i live in sweden) well theres alota hasselas (its an institute) for allot of different pepole. the one in gotland is for drug abusers. a guy came from there and told us about hes experience. to cut a long story short the guy lived in a bad family with his mother having always new men. he tried drugs when he was 12 and then he started to hang out with 40 years old drugies when he was 14 and he took a heroin injection. he got into hospital then they send him there after a request from his mother. he told us a long story.

another thing a man from there that came with them that works there, told us about how you actually think drugs is right. its all about starting to bend youre limits. and when you bend them you think it is good, then you bend them more and you think this and that is good wich evreybody inside actually know that its bad. Thats what its all about.

Yeah i just feelt that i needed to post this and can you please stop this war man youre making me sick. as i said im not with anyone i dont say that drugs can be used regularly for good or that it should not be used at all. but for me better stay on the safe side wich is not to try drugs

thank you for reading this.

[Ness]

I just want to say that not once have I ever seen or heard of a drug dealer using the mythical "First one's free" routine. IMO, the drugs you should stay away from are methamphetamine and heroin. They're just too good for your own good. I'm not sitting here trying to convince people that everyone should use drugs or that there is no down side to drugs or anything silly like that. Drug use DOES ruin lives, but IMO the role that drugs plays in that equation is usually blown out of proportion. The people who's lives get ruined by drugs usually weren't using for recreation, but for escapism or to make every day life more bearable. People say theirs or someone they know's life was ruined by drugs, but that usually isn't the whole story. You have to look deeper and ask "Why were they using drugs in the first place?" More often than not the answer is because they didn't think they could face life sober. Primarily, I am an advocate of psychedelics. Other drugs are all well and good, but psychedelics are simply divine. Psychedelics are the original source of religion. There is a strong body of evidence that suggests that psilocybin mushrooms played a key role in the development of man as it is today. Psychedelics are just...good for you. Again, I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and lollipops, you have to prepare yourself. "Bad trips" are usually a result of incomplete submission to the experience. Anyway, if anyone wants to know more I'd be happy to talk about it, but I'm not going to go into detail just because. So yeah, I hope that post makes some sense. I guess my overall point is "Drugs are alright, just watch yourself" and "Psychedelics are fantastic!" lol

[jaysawatzki]

I just want to say that not once have I ever seen or heard of a drug dealer using the mythical "First one's free" routine. IMO, the drugs you should stay away from are methamphetamine and heroin. They're just too good for your own good. I'm not sitting here trying to convince people that everyone should use drugs or that there is no down side to drugs or anything silly like that. Drug use DOES ruin lives, but IMO the role that drugs plays in that equation is usually blown out of proportion. The people who's lives get ruined by drugs usually weren't using for recreation, but for escapism or to make every day life more bearable. People say theirs or someone they know's life was ruined by drugs, but that usually isn't the whole story. You have to look deeper and ask "Why were they using drugs in the first place?" More often than not the answer is because they didn't think they could face life sober. Primarily, I am an advocate of psychedelics. Other drugs are all well and good, but psychedelics are simply divine. Psychedelics are the original source of religion. There is a strong body of evidence that suggests that psilocybin mushrooms played a key role in the development of man as it is today. Psychedelics are just...good for you. Again, I'm not saying that it's all sunshine and lollipops, you have to prepare yourself. "Bad trips" are usually a result of incomplete submission to the experience. Anyway, if anyone wants to know more I'd be happy to talk about it, but I'm not going to go into detail just because. So yeah, I hope that post makes some sense. I guess my overall point is "Drugs are alright, just watch yourself" and "Psychedelics are fantastic!" lol

Ohh my God. I just have to post once more, this will be my last one. But my GOD!!!! Like I said before, people get in the mix and thinking that drugs are okay, and as this person above me stated, your push limits, and stretch truths and facts and manipulate them in your mind. You need to understand this is EXACTLY what you are doing. Sure THC has actually recently been found to reverse CANCER cells in their formation, but guess what that CO2 is doing in your lungs, it's tearing them apart. People get to into small things that are okay, and they forget about all the obvious things. I have to agree with you in saying LSD is for the most part okay, but it WILL mess you up in the long run. Even small bits. I am really sorry to have to go on this note, but I think you need to read that guys post above your last one, and then think about your life, and how you are doing EXACTLY what the guys he is talking about are. I know where you are coming from Ness, believe me I am. And I say this in the best way I can. Stop bud. I used to be a druggie too, back in HS I was. I did the same things you are doing now, finding excuses and pushing and twisting what the doctors said, and researchers said to find myself a safe feeling. One where I was in my own world, completely oblivious to what really happens. Really, I was there too with Oxy and Hydros, turned my back to what people said, and did my own research in books etc. and I made myself believe truly believe that they wouldn't hurt me, and I was only doing it for a bit, fooling only myself. You just have to understand, I know you aren't a child or anything, and you can live your own life, but take it from someone looking in.

[Ness]

Where your logic fails, however, is that no matter what I say aside from "Oh, alright I see the light now!" will only be construed as proving your point. I have to be on the defense. I have to defend myself from your attack, which will only prove your point in the eyes of the prohibitionists. As for LSD messing you up in the long term, that is ONLY true from the perspective of what society views as "normal". For those who do not view things the same way society does, LSD doesn't "mess you up" at all. I do not convince myself of anything, I twist no facts. I know EXACTLY what I am doing to my mind and body every single time I use a chemical. EXACTLY. Your logic only works if you make the assumption that whatever damage might be done is greater than the increased quality of life the user gets. When the increased quality of life is greater than the (very minor) damage done from responsible use, your logic completely falls apart.

[sharperguy]

I think after reading that my opinion is:

Drugs can be helpful or harmful depending on the way they are used.

The "war on drugs" is a good thing because it's not just the drugs themselves, but the dealers that try to get people addicted and kill people etc.

I don't think drugs should be completely legalised but the law needs to be changed quite a bit.

Doctors should be able to use drugs that are normally illegal if they think it should help, but I still think there are many better ways that people could be helped and they should be researched and considered (and by better I mean more effective, not just that they don't use drugs).

For recreational purposes I think they aren't too bad but that doesn't mean they should be totally legal because of the way they could be misused.

Alcohol/Nicotine/Caffeine should be treated the same way as other drugs.

[Ness]

Drugs should absolutely not be fully legalized. But the war on drugs as it is now does far more damage than even full legalization would do.

[sharperguy]

Drugs should absolutely not be fully legalized. But the war on drugs as it is now does far more damage than even full legalization would do.

Well I don't think they're going about it the right way - but drugs shouldn't be produced/sold the way they are now. Especially as you never know where your money goes.

Then again, I'd hate to see drug sales in the hands of large corporations that care about nothing but stock value.